(Tell-Tale Heart/Town Crier Ray Brandes takes up a karmic collection with 25 years’ interest.)
In the cafés of Madrid, in the outdoor flea markets of Barcelona, and along the beaches of the southern coast of Spain, everyone is talking about “La Crisis.” The Spanish economy is now faltering badly, on the edge of a recession brought on by the collapse of a building boom; an average household debt 120 percent above the gross domestic product; and an unemployment rate of over 10 percent, the highest in Europe.
One company, however, which employs a curious and uniquely Spanish trade, has seen its business surge in this environment of unpaid bills. El Cobrador del Frac, the “debt collector in top hat and tails,” exists to humiliate debtors, playing on their sense of public shame. For a percentage of the collection, you can have your debtor’s footsteps dogged by a man conspicuously dressed like Fred Astaire and carrying a briefcase emblazoned with his trade. It is a shrewd and imaginative premise: that people are quick to repay the money they owe when their indebtedness is paraded in public.
It also works. El Cobrador del Frac boasts a 70 percent success rate, and its ingenious practice, begun some 20 years ago, has been copied by several other debt-collection agencies. It is now not uncommon to see people on the streets of Spain being followed by clowns, monks, masked swordsmen, even bagpipe players!
The Spanish are traditionally slow to pay debts. An estimated 60 percent of creditors write off their debts, due in part to the painfully slow court system which can take years to follow a suit to collection. The solution for many has been public embarrassment, a tactic which would not be tolerated in many other countries. In Spain, however, the practice has become a sign of the times.
This strange and amusing custom got me thinking about the concept of debt, both large and small scale, both literal and metaphorical.
One recent blog comment bemoaned the “borrowing” of a Lambretta fender guard a couple of decades ago, prompting Matthew to suggest we hold a “massive event where everybody gives each other’s stuff back, 25 years later.”
While I am sure I have held on to a few borrowed records and books over the years, I am most indebted to the Ché Underground for several gifts I have been given which defy monetary appraisal.
For example, I owe individuals like Ron Silva and Mike Stax for introducing me to worlds of music to which I might never have otherwise been exposed. And to a large extent I owe my self-confidence and introspective nature to the many social challenges I faced as a musician and band member in our little scene.
To whom are you indebted? Here’s an opportunity to recognize your fellow Che Undergrounders for the contributions to your own life.
— Ray Brandes
Wow, too many to name! Here are a few more or less on topic:
I owe Kavika Rives gratitude for tolerating my lousy guitar playing when we were junior-high-school sprats and helping me get at least marginally better at tuning and plucking stringed instruments.
I owe Tammy Pollard, MRAT Nee, Todd Barker and Steve Duke (among other slightly older, hipper North County neighbors) for helping me past white denim bell-bottoms with a star on the ass.
I owe the Answers mad love for their patronage of Noise 292 — despite the misgivings of some of their admirers.
I owe Eric Sloan, Mike McCarthy, Kurt Duke, John Stees and many others in the Encinitas Pannikin circle an enduring debt for putting up with me when I got pretty unbearable at the end of my San Diego tenure.
I owe Patrick Works for his companionship up in SF two years later, at another not-so-pleasant phase in my psychological development.
Then (chronologically speaking) I could get into a whole schmaltz-fest about what I owe my lovely wife … But I’ll spare you all! 🙂
i owe shawna and cricket davis a lot. they took me in when my own family was falling apart and gave me a second home. to their mama, i owe an enormous thank you for stepping in and being there for me, too.
i owe monica a debt of gratitude for being a big sister to me. for putting up with my drama, my intensity and for keeping my secrets. also, for all the late nights and laughing. monica, you are still one of my heroes.
i owe cricket logan a kick in the ass for all the intellectual tennis matches we played while not in our own minds. and for just being rad.
richard simpao (sp) is someone i wish i could thank, in person. he saved my life one night, and i am forever in his debt.
matthew, to you i raise my glass for effectively having been instrumental in reuniting us all. and for being an all around awesome guy. it’s good to see you again.
I am grateful for
Pat Works. For shelter, on more than one occasion. For paying that mammoth drama phone bill. For the blues, the i ching, for being my friend. For many, many Chesterfields.
Johnny Burkhalter. For giving me sanctuary in his kitchen.
Paul Howland. For making me laugh.
Louis Damien. Forever changes.
And the beat goes on…..thank you for all those rides, those chicken pie dinners, cups of coffee, heart-to-heart talks and carne asada burritos. you know who you are. I dont’ owe anything. You reap what you sow. You got the good karma coming to you.
On second thought. I’m sure I owe everyone a new lighter. 🙂
I owe Lily Washington $20.
Well , feel alot of gratitude to Matthew Rothenberg (Matt Rott) right now for the blog because it brought a long lost friend a guy I conisder family back into my life, the last couple of days have been amazing talking to my friend whom I have talked in 24 years, He bought his plane ticket so he can come out for the games of may, he flying in from Hawaii, Toby maybe you can stow away in his suitcase because you really belong here for this…. Also because i have made some new friends Kristen & Louie, people I never really new but now seem like old friends.
There was a lot of trickle down influence from people in bands, learned a lot about music from watching and listening to the bands, I bought my first MC-5 recorded because Tommy Clark told my friend they were cool, one of the coolest records ever “Kick out the Jams”, learned about all the abck from the grave type garage from digging the Gravedigger V, learned about dutch beat from the TTH.
Thanks!
we all have our own karma
or should i say caramel
sticky caramel
that sticks to everything
and reminds us about who we were
what happened
and
why were gonna do it all over
again
boy my caramel is really sticky
OK, OK … I owe the Encinitas Pannikin cheese. Quite a lot of cheese.
Is there a statute of limitations on cheese?
If Bob and Gay Sinclair are still alive, maybe I can show up at their house with my arms full of cheese.
I lent Black Market Carl
the whole dead boys collection and a few other pretty rare albums
never saw them again
I borrowed Scott Clasby (sp) a 1973 Honda 350 4 cylinder to get home one day
I never saw the bike again
Hmmmm…this thread got me thinking a little
what a fool I was
Matthew- Stop the denial. You know very well there is a statue of limitations on unfrosted baked goods, but not cheese. You know what you have to do. Start packing up the artisan manchegos and gruyere. Chevre with fresh basil. Deliver with sincere apologies.
I do still owe Ron Masters a flannel shirt. Sorry, dude, I really did mean to return it. I did. But that would have required taking it off. And I really, really loved that shirt.
I owe Tom Dillery an apology for being a stupid oblivious jerk.
When I was 16 I put myself in a place job corps in IB, needed to get my stuff together, while I was there an unkown friend came over to my house told my mom I had some of his records and went my room and made off with best albums….. It was not a good friend because my said she had only seen him once or twice and did not know his name. crazy.
insert-my, insert-my….
Johhny Vomit
stole my car and got it impounded twice..never paid either time
stole my moped and filled it up with regular gas..siezed the motor
borrowed and lost 2 bicycles…jeeze I could go one
he dated my mother..so there was plenty of oppertunity
everyone has to sleep sometime…
Ray:
Anent our earlier discussion of unattractively-named Brit foods -- -- I can’t speak for Mike Stax, having known him only very slightly, but I suspect that in the part of his mind that is forever English he probably thought of the sandwich you describe as a “crisp butty.” It doesn’t make it sound more appetizing, does it?
I owe a debt of gratitude and gas money to a few folks on here.
I ended up driving half of you in my parents LUV pick up with the camper shell to all those shows when I could drive a pay back. I remember driving to E street to pick up the E street gang at Pats, then all the way to La Mesa then to the backdoor once or twice.
To Dean and Larry N.: you were the great older brothers I never had. Thanks for letting me borrow LPs. To Dave F and Dave Anderson I could go on. To Gonzalo Manuel for getting us gigs and making tapes of Salvation Army and 5051.
To those who continue to share and impart wisdom, cool leads on new sounds or scooter repair, I salute you.
I love the way Google AdSense tries to figure out what our posts are about.
For example, the top of this page is displaying ads for debt collection. “Yeah, Freedom Financial Network? I’d like my virginity back — and my Germs album, please. I lost them the same night in 1981. Can you put someone on this?”
God Bless you crazy old souls, heck, even us young ones…just reading these thank-you’s and IOUs and I’m sorry’s and “geez that was neat” makes me laugh and feel yummy inside!
Lou Damian, your Karma might be sticky…but I’m sure it is as sweet as you always were, or as I remember you as being (you are one of my long lost friends that I anticipate seing the most at the show…you were always such a welcome visitor on Madison Avenue at my GoGo pad!)…
Sometimes it is hard to let go of the ugly things that hurt us, like when people beytrayed a trust, stole something, or led someone astray….I still have a bad taste in my mouth from when tedd and Jeff split San Diego with the bass amp I rented for the Molocks and left me sitting with the bill for nearly a year!…That hurt a lot, on many different levels. And, it was Leighton who eventually righted Jeff’s wrong. By my calculations, Jeff Lowe owe’s me roughly $6,500 (due to modern day interest) on that matter! Bad Karma!
But if it weren’t for getting involved with Jeff, Leighton & The Morlocks, then I might not have found Anni, Carina and the rest of Everybody Violet. If it weren’t for those crazy mystical parties on Madison Avenue with Catherine, Kristen, Lou, Leighton, Tommy, Darren Grealish, Paul Hokeness, Michelle & Kristina, Keith & Jeff, and others…
then Kool & the Gang wouldn’t have stopped by and tuned on my brain and swi=tched on my creative life. I wouldv’e secumbed to being a dumb model or actress without a voice, a victim who allows people to walk all over her. Instead, I was blessed to be surrounded by other wise, creatve and questionable young minds who asked why things happen, and sought answers to their troubles.
I chose the active life of the artist; although it has brough many hardships, it is rich in rewards.
I’ve always tried to be a good person along the way, these last 25 years. But as Ray said, even in the best of times, I’m sure there were moments that I behaved like an ass and hurt someone’s feelings over something unintentional or even well-meaning. I am a high-spirited Sagitarius, a fire sign…I often speak before I think, which sometimes gets me into trouble. So, in case you are one of those people I may have taken from or hurt unjustly along the way…please accept my apololgy. If you see me at The Casbah, say hello, introduce yourself ( I may be slow on the uptake due to my brain injury of 2004)…give me a moment to make things right as a a grown up human being.
PS Jerry Cornelius…please return my very rare book on the Illuminati….you know the one I am talking about!
I’m not so much of a math head, but … What would a 40 of Olde English, compounded daily at 6 percent interest for 25 years, be worth on today’s market? ‘Cause I’m not naming names, but I think somebody owes me thousands of dollars.
According to my calculations, a grudge (equal parts hurt feelings, resentment and anger), multiplied by twenty-five years with an annual percentage rate of 6% equals anxiety, high blood pressure, depression, substance abuse, cancer, heart disease, bitterness and hatred.
Hey Ray -- You make more sense than anyone yet, on this subject.
I don’t even understand the IOU’s concept. I guess it depends on how you live your life, but I can truly say that I owe no apologies and no apologies are owed me.
I hurt one person, once, and one person has hurt me. Not bad for half a century! Being truthful and staying out of other peoples business is a pretty good recipe for good health, mental and physical.
The original post is not about making apologies or announcing long-held grievances. To the contrary, it is about the gratitude that we carry for those who have inspired us or have in some way helped to lessen our burdens along the way. It’s not productive to keep a tally sheet, but I’m going to have to live a very long life to give as much as I have been given over the years!
PPS: On a more practical note, I owe y’all some new content on this blog.
I’ve been in transit doing the Noise 292 practice thang but should be back to brass tacks (a k a New Jersey) this evening. (I could always use some fresh ephemera, if you’ve got it.)
Or do we owe you more content Matthew?
Ray wrote-According to my calculations, a grudge (equal parts hurt feelings, resentment and anger), multiplied by twenty-five years with an annual percentage rate of 6% equals anxiety, high blood pressure, depression, substance abuse, cancer, heart disease, bitterness and hatred.
This is true, it’s better to let it go, be happy, and move on, live life, live longer:)
this is kind of silly, but Ray, my mom once took a class from your dad and they got to talking about allowances for their respective kids. Apparantly, you all made money by clipping coupons and then being reimbursed for the money saved at the store? Who knows if that was true but that Grand Tradition of Money Making turned me into a master clipper forever looking for the holy grail: the Double Coupon.
thanks, man.
Megan: That’s not even a LITTLE silly … That’s a really cool skill I wish I’d acquired!
Never met the man, but I’ve become a huge fan of Ray’s dad over this past year. 🙂
yes, I plan on mimeographing drink coupons for the Casbah and presenting the used ones to my moms on Monday for the payout. ohyeah.
Megan--
We never received allowances--there were just too damn many of us! We all had ingenious methods of raising money, however, including selling seeds and greeting cards door to door (companies used to advertise in kids’ magazines all the time) and even making crafts and selling them door to door on occasion. I vaguely remember one or two of my sisters doing the coupon thing--it’s actually a pretty smart idea. I also collected bottles and did yardwork for neighbors for a dollar an hour. Jeez, I sound old.
You all kept me alive, and from becoming a borderline homeless person, at one time or another.
Thanks. I’m sure nobody has had my proper expression of appreciation.
--Jerry C.
Kristi --
Love Conspiracy? That would be a Jeff item, I’m afraid…
I haven’t seen my extremely rare “Yellow Submarine” lunchbox since fourth grade. I suspect Richard Stakelum. Or I dropped it.
I’d like it back, especially since (I sincerely hope!!) there’s still some soup in the thermos that has great sentimental value — and probably some hallucinogenic qualities after 36 years.
>>I also collected bottles and did yardwork for neighbors for a dollar an hour.
That wasn’t rotten money for a kid in those days … Think of all the neat stuff you could get for a buck — prolly a thread of its own!
Speaking of a buck…I used to know a girl as a kid that would….I better not go there. Last time I talked about a girl/child from a princedom by the sea, her BROTHER posted! … ‘member?
What is the difference between Beer Nuts snd Deer Nuts?
Beer nuts are $1.39 and Deer nuts are under a buck.
::snicker::
Wow, collecting bottles for money(nickles & dimes) that brings back memories, take them right into the store and get your $. I would spend all day looking for bottles, and checking pay phones for change. To be young and lets say not rich.
Sadly I have been a taker rather than a giver and I’m sure most of you realized this much earlier than I. It’s difficult however when you’re young sometimes to gauge ones own selfishness and maybe It wasn’t all bad because I feel super blessed to have experienced the hospitality and friendships I have rec’d from so many of you,and I’m sure some don’t even remember their contributions to me. “The Che years”, which to me don’t really have much to do with the cafe itself, but since Matt has created this ingenious site for us all to reconnect, that’s what I’ll now also sum them up as, were personally some of the best years of my life. I think you will all agree we were very lucky to have come up when we did, I actually feel sorry for the kids these days,there’s just not alot left for them to create. Maybe recreate and expand on,but let’s face it, WE started this gangsta shit and this is the m#*%*%$^#^$ thanx……. Sorry, got kinda carried away there for a sec!
I hope I don’t bore everyone to tears, my IOU list is long, but distinguished and like Love and Rockets once said,”people like to hear their names,” so here goes: First of all I’d like to thank God for making IT ALL possible. Here on earth I’d like to thank Alena for giving me the best gift I’ve ever rec’d and that’s our daughter Pia. Alena is my best friend and I feel honored to have shared my life w/her. Also her mother who has been generous to a fault with free rent when we were young. Also to Kristi Maddocks for…well just for being Kristi and for unselfishly lending her car Echo. Also to Tim Ortiz who I have’nt seen much of lately but when we were youngsters we were basically attached at the hip. And of course to Dirk Westervelt and his dad Bill, {RIP},who gave me a place to live when my own parents said… later. Theresa Steinwehe for being awesome and making me a better person.Natalie Moore…same. Matt Kashani for being invaluable. Richard Simpao,I love that boy! Sarah Spry for her infectious enthusiasm. Maria Dudley for her quiet intensity.James and Kristina Harrell for keeping it going. Ray Brandes for taking that collect call at one of the low points.Darren Graelish who can still talk me into some crazy adventures,stay gold Pony Boy! All the good ones who make us better through our connections; Pat W., Jerry C.,Paul Hokeness,Kevin Ring,Sean McMullen,Matt Johnson,Dean Curtis,Jeff Lucas,Bobby Lane,Leighton K,Tony Suarez,Steve Medico,Brendon and Marit Berg,Kristin Tobiason, Mara Owens,Shawna Davis,Mike Sherman,Tabitha W.,Michelle Krone,the Kopels,the South Bay guys and all the Mira Mesa mini mods and anyone else I might of forgot. I realize I took this thread on sort of an unrelated tangent but I wanted to include you all because unfortunately my insane life won’t allow me to make it to the Games, which is depressing because I’d love to see you all and the f#@!&*-up part is I still live right here,downtown!!!!! I love you all and if Alena goes, maybe* she can pass my love around. I’ll miss you all…I think I’m gonna cry!
paul, i think fondly of you. i’m glad you are happy and that you are with someone who gives you joy. the past is past, your life now is the beauty and truth. it was a pleasure to have you in my life when we were younger. and it’s good to see you now. i wish you could come out.
paul, we only know each other through osmosis, like plants growing in the same backyard. same with many of you. we brushed sleeves at a show. passed in the dark at presidio park, and, of course, there is the ever-present six degrees of chris squire.
yet even though we had our own exclusive pods of peers back then, we intercepted through music, time & place. so though we don’t “know” each other, we all share that common thread…feathers from the same bird,
like the wands of Harry and Voldemort…?
ugh. i am still waking up and am the proverbial fruit loop in God’s chosen breakfast cereal.
Kristen that was the cool thing about our scene back then,it was so small that we really all should have connected a little more,but like Ray admitted recently to being an elitist, pompous A#$,I was also afflicted with the “too cools”. Maybe we had to be that way for something so creative to thrive.But alas, too cool almost killed me. Recently I was going to approach you and Alena at Claire de Lune to say hi with Pia But again I did not and you guys looked like you were doing fine on your own catching-up. So ya everyone on that list had/has a part in MY Che Lineage. Cheers
Hey Paul,
I used the words pompous ass--you added the elitist part!
Matthew-
Thank you for a place to post gratitude. I am so much better and understanding and expressing it now than I ever was then. Plus, who can recognize a life-shaping moment when they’re in it? There have been so many times over the years when I’ve looked back and been horrified about who and what I took for granted. Or about all the silly little obstacles that made it hard to say something as simple as, “Thank you. You are awesome.” So, Matt, for making that possible now- Thank you. You are awesome.
Tim Ortiz once sagely told me that I would get more dates if I stopped talking about encyclopedias. I tried and even then no one asked me out. So I started talking about them again. And still no one asked me out. Maybe it wasn’t the encyclopedias? 😉
That is so funny. I don’t even know who you are …but it’s very hilarious.
megan, again, i say, it’s because brains freak men out. they are like reverse zombies.
>>brains freak men out
Ava: I like big brains, and I cannot lie! All you other brothers can’t deny …
great, Bruce. you don’t even know who I am and you are already laughing at me. story of my life. sigh.
Ha Ha … WITH you, with you.
Matt are you talking about Brains??
AVA -- come on now with that generalization. At this stage of life that’s all I love.
yeah!!! i love to hear it, b.
matthew, haha!!!
megan, you are a true beauty. period.
AVA -- listen carefully … there it is … the love of someones mind. It only gets better and better…
Matt IS the ASSMAN, I knew it!
Megan is beautiful…you can feel it in her humor.
I agree, step back with that generalization, Ava. Everyone knows encyclopedias are hot!
Thanks Ray -- smart chicks, ( notice “chicks”, not “women”), are SO hot. Imagine holding that brilliant head….oh my. THAT’S love.
Maybe we should start referring to hot chicks as “encyclopedias”. If no one else has coined this it’s mine!
insert smart chicks for hot chicks and it makes sense.
Hence the term: smart ass.
Kristen -- I wish you would contribute more…barely saw you on the INJECTIONS thread. And we talked about EVERYTHING there.
Megan you do realize you were getting advice from the man himself right? Tim has probably seduced more women than Magic Johnson!!!
Well now……
I owe alot of people for all the drugs…
How to repay them is the question…. Hmmmmm….
I could send cash or just punch them in the face,
Either way the debt would be paid,
I owe Tim Maze, Mark Rude, And Cliff Cunningham for all the very cheap shows I got to see,and for a life time of memories,
My kid is going to see Nine Inch Nails for three hundred bucks,
When I heard thats how much it was gonna cost him I laughed and I felt very greatful to those guys for the $2.00 to $6.00 shows I got to see, A big Thank You for that!!!!
I owe way to many people debts of gratitude for countless acts of kindness shown to me, Im afraid I’ll never be able to repay them,
Or count them, But thank you just the same….
I owe my wife the biggest debt for having faith and believing in me and seeing something worth saving,
So to Tracy I say thank you,
>>I could send cash or just punch them in the face
Mark: Innerestin’ paradox, that one. Seriously.
I dunno … I personally would call that one even and figure everyone did what they did … Remember the version of generosity that impelled those donations and try not to dwell on the lack of adult wisdom that rendered not-so-good results from them.
Our strict rules here about implicating others compel me to choose my words carefully here, but in those days, friends certainly did help friends do … Stuff that makes the parent writing this shudder!
It’s a question I’ve mulled often, and my best formulation leaves the coin squarely balanced on its edge between debt and forgiveness. 🙂
Yeah your right about calling er square Matt,
I was just being Cute,
We all did what we did and nobody ever twisted our arms… and if they did it never hurt too much,
Having my own Chitlins….I shudder every time they leave the house, Im in a constant state of panic and worry,
Ahh to be young again,
Forgiveness,
Forgiveness…..
Even if,
Even if you dont love me anymore…….
>>Having my own Chitlins….I shudder every time they leave the house, Im in a constant state of panic and worry,
No kidding! But I think the fact that we understand what can happen — that you know enough to worry! — helps a lot.
Looking back and reconsidering our parents as peers of the people we are now … I feel like the whole “Lord of the Flies” dynamic going on in some corners of the scene was total terra incognita for most of them!
My kids tell me more than most of us did to our folks … But of course they’re not telling everything, so it’s also a matter of knowing what to listen for, right? 🙂
We’ve touched elsewhere on IOUs to some of the parents who did get it (or tried hard!) but that bears repeating as well.
“Well now……
I owe alot of people for all the drugs…
How to repay them is the question…. Hmmmmm….
I could send cash or just punch them in the face,”
this made me laugh…
well said Mark
I want more follow ups to AVAs ridiculously disproportionate brain.
bruce, are you being nice or mean… i can’t tell.
I’m being mean. LOL. What is it with you guys??
Weren’t we having fun with great brains, encyclopedias, and intimidated men….oh…like yesterday??
AVA, how about I preface when I’m being mean with “I’m being mean”?? Read my 700 posts or email me if you don’t know by now……….
Amen to both KRISTEN, and what does that mean in this context??
bruce, i don’t think you are mean. i was kidding. i KNOW you love my big brain.
i sat and thought about what to write… but it boils down to a short list:
i got my ba in english at the age of 35. i studied sociology and womens studies as dual undeclared minors. did my thesis on the saints thing i mentioned in another thread.
i got my ma in psychology and did my internship at the queer resource center on campus. i advocated for the kids who were struggling and did some work in town to bring about aids awareness. including bringing portions of the aids quilt to our sleepy town to remind people that lives are lost due to ignorance and fear. had a good debate with a priest on campus about how to keep people from contracting hiv while adhering to the “abstinence” policies. he wound up seeing my point.
i worked for a time as a quality manager at a non profit for the persistently mentally ill. i loved my clients and miss them daily. but i couldn’t work for the man who was my boss. he was a hard one to handle. snapped his fingers in my face a lot and took way too much time off, never gave me the guidance i truly needed to be effective. that was a hard job to let go of. i am seeking work helping people cope with grief as well as doing production for a local company that works with all kinds of organizations around the world. so we will see. best to put my myriad skills to good use, no?
but at the core of it all is henry. my son is my world. he’s amazing. he has aspergers syndrome and is about the coolest person i have ever met. we have a really good, very mellow, but adventurous life. on his 10th birthday i took him to see radiohead in san francisco. he loved it. golden gate park. he is my partner in crime and we have a blast most days while we struggle through a half time homeschool set up. he is smarter than i will ever be at his tender age of almost 11.
i know that i have evolved far past the person who most of you knew way back in the day. i don’t drink much anymore, to begin with. and i am far and away less dramatic. drama just makes me tired. i avoid it. but i bet if any of you were raised by opera singers and gay men who seek the priesthood you’d be a little confused, too. not to mention a bit on the dramatic side. so yeah, i was pretty much larger than life. but now? nah. just a mellow version of the lady i once was. with a lot more life under her belt.
i love coffee, knitting, scrabble, a good beer, my heavy bag, yoga and last but not least, the people in my life who are constant as the north star. you freaks know who you are.
(bruce, there you go. now you have the nutshell version of who i am, was and want to be.)
Wow…I am so grateful for this wonderful reply. Let me read it a few times so I know you. How great it would be if all the regulars here responded in a similar way. This really made my day !
BTW, how DID you know I loved your big brain??
i just. do. 😉
Easy there cowboy….
I don’t think anyone is inherently mean. Sometimes the stuff we carry inside or the day we’re having is reflected in our communication. Some days at work I won’t hold the elevator door open for people. None of us are saints, nor do we have to be. If I were to judge you then I have to judge myself first.
A thought, we all have the freedom of speech to exercise our opinions and views, but we also have to accept the consequences that some people might not agree, or may have hurt feelings if we decide not to play nice. BUT…how cool that we live in a place where we can have differences! I really appreciate that.
I’m inherently meandering … I wanted to call a band The Meanderthals.
matthew, if you do that may i please be the back up meanderer???
Kristen -- I think that you can hurt peoples feeling even if you are playing nice. It seems like the disagreement alone can be hurtful. I certainly don’t want to waste my time agreeing with and congratulating everyone.
When you say mean people suck after a post, anyone would wonder what that refers to.
I don’t like the feeling of censorship or taboo subjects, but it’s not my Blog.
AND I am a cowboy, Baby………
>>I don’t like the feeling of censorship or taboo subjects, but it’s not my Blog.
It’s my blog if it’s anybody’s … So if it helps, I don’t like the feeling of censorship or taboo subjects, either. (Hence we haven’t exercised much, except of course when it comes to exposing others’ youthful transgressions in public. That’s more an ethical choice than a taboo, though, IMHO.)
However, while I’ve yet to feel compelled to break up a dispute by force (not feeling it here, either, for the record) … I also am not convinced that debate is the default mode of intelligent discourse and that the only alternative is “agreeing with and congratulating everyone.”
Case in point: In this thread, I’m interested in reading what people feel grateful about, about their varying concepts of indebtedness, and about how those concepts have informed their maturation process.
I don’t think there’s a “right” answer — indeed, Mr. Zizzo’s ostensibly humorous question about paying folks money or punching them for the dangerous drugs they shared as kids exposes a pretty interesting moral conundrum that bears exploration.
I also don’t think there’s a “wrong” way to feel gratitude … Is there? But hey — I’ll listen to arguments! 🙂
Basically, I’m usually more interested in comparing notes than in winning a debate — not ’cause debating is bad but because it seems like a bit of a non sequitur when it comes to describing subjective matters of personal philosophy.
Can I say categorically that somebody’s got the wrong kind of gratitude or the wrong kind of perception of the imperceptible? I suppose I could — but I don’t see how it advances my understanding or theirs.
Well said Matthew. Bravi!
>>I also am not convinced that debate is the default mode of intelligent discourse and that the only alternative is “agreeing with and congratulating everyone.”
No … these are the extremes. I, for one, am more interested in what happens in between, in general. There is still a place and time, even here, for a lot of debate and congratulations…read it all the time.
Trouble is the Blog can get quite dull and posts become scarce when it becomes four members of a mutual admiration club. Again, it’s not my blog. Get rid of all the color, rhetoric, drama, dogma,…I don’t know what you have.
Ever notice how much posting occurs and how high emotions run and how friendships grow and change and more people chime in when someone starts to STIR THIS SHIT UP???
Maybe there could be a separate thread for those who LOVE conflict…and the positive outgrowth of resolution.
I KNEW I wouldn’t even finish my post before the “agreeing and congratulating” began.
You deserve a HUGE ego Matt, which you don’t have. That’s why I like you.
I refuse to agree with, or congratulate you MATT, but that’s freakin funny!
we could always talk about encyclopedias again.
>>we could always talk about encyclopedias again.
Megan: Ever read “The Whore of Mensa” by Woody Allen? It made me the man I am today.
God, I remember how embarrassed I was in seventh grade — I got caught trying to sneak a peek into the girls’ reading room at our junior high!
I was curious, OK? And I wanted to know if … Well, if girls turned one page at a time like boys.
It was stupid and intrusive, but I was thinking with my frontal lobes at that age. (C’mon … Who here wasn’t?)
Yeah Megan…best thing I’ve heard today. That was feminist and fun!
I would like to tell a story about 7th grade peeking, bu I fear the fallout….
Matthew! I lived in the library in junior high. It was a way to avoid getting “pantsed” in the lunchyard. But there I was being an exhibitionist, fondling pages of Farenheit 451 or Grapes of Wrath.
i just found a copy of grapes of wrath in a giveaway box today. who the hell parts with steinbeck???
Getting back to the original spirit of the post. I’ll never forget Ray Brandes showing up at PLHS one day in late 79, early 80 with a copy of the London Calling album. It had just come out and we all sort of stared at it. Next thing I know I’m buying my own copy, listening to each side 20 times before heading to the next and then staring at the pictures of them on tour and thinking that looks like the most fun somebody could have. Got to see them three times live and sit in on an interview with Joe Strummer a few years later but it was Ray who was the catalyst. Between him and Maure Silverman teaching me how to play the bass, they both prevented me from a life where…….. I’d probably have earned a lot more money come to think of it….both my parents are doctors for chrissakes! I couldn’t gone to med school, my idea of fun would be flying to Jimmy Buffet concerts in the Keys….while wearing my Dave Mathews shirt (so the other Doc’s would think I was edgy).
OK…that last part is just Friday afternoon talking. But yeah, between you and Silverman much is appreciated… and weren’t we all “pompous ass’s” in our 20’s?
Kristen -- If they give you ruled paper write the other way.
>>parts with steinbeck???
Ava: … The literary version of “friends with benefits.”
>>Your reference was…….?
… Do I get to pet the rabbits?
Matt -- you are too heavy.
“I hardly Knew Her”…still working on it.
I am sitting in our miracle vet’s office, where I was joined by a very sweet older lady who played with my dog and talked about her pets for about 15 minutes.
Then she asked me to step outside, and with tears in her eyes asked me for $15 for food. I gave her $20.
I’d be very unlikely to give that much money to somebody who stopped me cold on the street. What made this encounter different? Human generosity is a funny thing.
generosity ::is:: a funny thing.
seeing a woman struggling with her two kids and an impatient cashier at the grocery the other day. she was trying to decide what she needed most out of the food she’d selected but couldn’t afford all of. i stepped forward, put the money down, told the cashier to bag the food and smiled at the mama. told her to have a good day and know that she’s cared for.
people have done far greater things for me.
Big brain…big heart.
Bruce, that is a massive understatement.
How so KEVIN. I thought it might be a “little” overstatement.
Well, the big brain is obvious. The big heart is something I have experienced personally. Ava truly is one of the kindest, most caring people I’ve ever had the fortune of meeting.
(kevin, you are very sweet.)
Jus’ keepin’ it real.
Seriously.
Don’t know AVA personally -- just get a good cyber-vibe.
terry, if helping marginalized people to cope with a world that is both ignorant and hateful is a demon then yes, i have one.
what a terrible thing for you to say. truly.
my god is not a judgmental god.
and the word queer is not an expletive if persons who are, themselves, queer, are using it to take away from the prejudicial lingo.
at some point? (Sorry--pressed “go” too soon. Must keep going now that I’m all worked up…). He didn’t- -- unless you count “Love thy neighbor as thy self” (which rather supports my argument…). All the anti-gay stuff comes from the OT, which is also rather tough on shellfish-eating but down with polygamy and slavery.
I say we need more love not less. I have trouble contemplating a God who makes gay people by mistakes. And since I can’t remember staring down the demon of queerness and “deciding” to like girls, I don’t imagine that my gay friends and family ever made the opposite “decision”.
Again, sorry if I’m missing the joke and flying off the handle here. Good one. Ha ha.
Just to advance the question a little further with a hypothetical: If someone behaved in a way in his youth that most observers would consider predatory, then experienced a spiritual crisis later that caused him to regret those actions, what dues would he owe the people affected by his earlier behavior?
Would claiming spiritual enlightenment and preaching an extremely rigid version of the religious dogma he’d embraced be sufficient to repair the damage? Or would a loving God expect more acceptance of others’ behavior and a sincere, tangible effort to address past pains inflicted?
To me, the first option seems like egocentric self-justification that expiates one’s own guilt by demonizing others. I’d think actual empathy and real atonement would have to be part of the formula for it to have any meaning,
Interesting spin on the whole debt theme, at least for me.
Ava: I concur. “Queer” is not automatically a pejorative — it has to be intentionally used as such. A friend of mine who is both gay and black talks about “Queer Studies”. (Then again, he has also referred to himself as a “boring old faggot” and uses the N-word quite a bit, especially in his writings. I do find both of those to have too much baggage to be used in a non-pejorative way by anyone who is not, respectively, gay or black.)
I guess there’s a consensus here…almost. I guess this could be summed up best by Matts comment. Would any God, of this purported magnitude of power, REALLY care about this ????????
In reference to the “early” scene, the only scene I knew…definitely gay friendly. Wasn’t around for what took place after.
All I here about from the Jesus side is LOVE..and INTOLERANCE.
I thought rhetoric and dogma was banned from the blog??
I think it’s complete bullshit that some Christians try to apply and enforce their archaic fable on non christians, largely protected by social mores and laws that run contrary in many ways to that very same superstitious tome. Christianity is as pagan as everything it pushed aside- it’s participants just gloss that over as they pick and choose tiny bits of the bible to follow and try to enforce on the rest of the world, ignoring the other 90% of the book. Complete rubbish about gays being somehow wicked. I’ve known plenty gays and plenty people calling themselves Christians, and of the two groups I find far more wickedness in the latter.
It seems the people who have the most to be guilty about that cling to promises of “salvation” and “forgiveness” like a moral handi-wipe. It’s too bad most of them seem to know zero about the forgiveness and tolerance they’re reading about.
>>I thought rhetoric and dogma was banned from the blog??
Bruce: Again, nothing’s banned (except taking others’ personal inventory) … But I am not averse to anyone calling both out. 🙂
Here, here TOBY…couldn’t have said it better myself. I am trying to take a lighter tone…but man, you said it. It’s like 1% of the good book is gleaned.
like a moral handi-wipe.!!!
Matt -- I only mentioned it to get your response. Don’t want to piss off the BIG dogma himself.
My personal way of responding to Leviticus is to leave the car home and walk whenever I can. To put aside money for charity. Recycle. Buy fair trade products. Seems more relevant to relating my personal life to tribal survival that whether I produce enough babies to keep us going for another generation.
Also, Ava, remember Karate Jesus loves you.
karate jesus is my homie. i appreciate you saying all that you said, robin. tis true.
toby, thanks for your words.
coincidentally i met with a woman this morning whose son just came out to her and her husband. we talked, at length, about what was said here and it was agreed that with such ignorance comes the greater need to participate in intelligent discourse on how to be incorporating and inclusive in our world. i was asked to be the team leader in developing a program here in town which will assist kids without parents who will understand or support them. i agreed wholeheartedly. we start next week in turning around the archaic “don’t ask, don’t tell” bull. i am so motivated for this. and it’s comments like terry’s that propel me forward, not backward.
keep it up, mister marine. you only make us stronger.
Big brain…big heart…open mind…
Doesn’t sound like you need Jesus or anyone else to “guide” you.
So, in the spirit of the thread: Thank you, Ava. We are indebted to you for your generous and loving work.
Ray, if you are having any dairy or pork with that meal, you probably should get an exorcist stat. God hates shrimp.
god also requires a bull be burned on an altar lest we all perish due to his wrath. but i digress…
ray, thanks for your support. i truly believe that after my father died of aids in 1996 that i was called to help diffuse the myths and prejudices which inhibit the progress of our culture toward one of truest “love thy neighbor”. so it took a while to get to this place, raising a kiddo on my own kept me from being as involved as i’d like. but i am so grateful for the relationships i have forged with some of the bravest souls i will ever meet through my time at the queer center. my boss there is a woman who i will always admire for her tireless work to help her students and the community. she taught me well.
i was considering the spirit of this thread, gratitude… and i thought that if any of us thinks our life is hard consider being a lesbian in a fundamentalist family where they send you to special camps to try and change you. or worse, as in a case i heard of, where a young woman came out to her family and she was raped in order to “turn” her straight. fear makes people do unspeakable things.
however, i think it is a beautiful thing we have here, this blog. so many varied opinions but one overarching sameness: we are all struggling with the human condition.
for some people it feels necessary to lash out at anything or anyone deemed “other” in order to feel superior. for others it is crucial to attempt to understand, to really, truly grok the life experiences of those so called “others” in order to gain a better sense of self and the meaning of brotherhood.
terry, i wish i knew what brought you to such anger and pain. because that is really what comes across in your post. truly.
toby, i can honestly say that your brain is someplace i’d like to vacation.
If you could only see the dark places my brain has gone. 😉
Ava, I’m really, really sorry about your dad. Your work is a beautiful legacy.
i have a new name for myself: thread killa.
Why do you say that?? I’ve probably killed more threads. Plus I would like to use the name killa.
HOLY SHIT …..I need to watch the news but I am writing my LAST PAPER. Graduation looms. Thanks for sharing that Matt.
J
x
Awwww, crap. It was on the CNN.com home page today (briefly), but I think it’s ’cause someone screwed up dates. This was a 2008 story. 🙁
jarvis was the bane of every teachers existence. what a tool.
did you hear about the governators decision to cut and borrow a bajillion from his already failing state.
makes you almost wistful for mister davis. no?
that was a big “PSYCHE” 🙂
Thank you Pat Works-You were one who showed me the way-in keeping my brain awake & allowing me to believe that I can learn what I want, without the long bus ride to Phelan Avenue, SF City College. Just get hunkered down, study, be my own PROF. Pat, you are big brains. And I’m thankful to ol’Austin for being the catalyst that got my retro’d little girl La Mesa self to San Francisco so that I could afford the freedom I always wanted. It got me to get to know some amazing people/teachers who became part of my daily backdrop, daily scoop and random happenings. Thanks to Karen Shelver and to you for the Paul Bowles and Jane Bowles reading experience.
And to Jerry Cornelius for amazing me with MC theatrical gymnastics- by your visual presence. You had “it” -- what i’d say to be my first experience with a towncrier, barker, carny, soapbox messenger of Music, History, Fashion, Wit and bravery armed w/ 360 degree full overexposure of hip. You scared me and drew me to you. You were quite shy weren’t you?
GOD knows I was shy, didn’t know how to open my mouth. So as I look back I’ll say the clothes and the music spoke for me ( Sorry to the Mormons who operated that Desiree Industries Thrift shop on Broadway in Lemon Grove where shopping/stealing were synonomous). San Diego thanks for-Great Shows I remember…Rain Parade!!! Lloyd Cole and the Commotions, The Chesterfield Kings at the Back Door. so many more…
Thank you Matthew for being who I thought to be one of the most interesting kids in Junior high. Thank you for including me in your amazing circle at an early age, thanks for introducing me to the Beatles, Beat and the Brush de Rousseau. And now I’m thanking you for your wonderful warm heartedness that’s manifested in the sharing of all of our warmth here.
I owe you all a debt of gratitude for your creative rebellious loving passionate hearts.
David Fleminger for those nights of Laughter and Intrigue at Marty’s in Encinitas. Sergio for understanding without words that night at the UCSD Library. Lou’s records for providing such a destination. Yogananda’s, Juanita’s…and I owed this blog a statement for a year now…