“I want to write a piece about not being ready to deal with death,” writes our friend Mark Mullen, veteran Morlocks and Wallflowers drummer and all-around good egg. He’s given me generous permission both to quote him and to solicit the support of our age mates, who are learning to face this inevitable with greater frequency every year.
“My grandma died two days ago, and my aunt died a week ago, both to have services Sunday. …. Same day.
“I pretty much shut down and did not deal with it,” Mark writes. “Maybe if I wrote the story and had feedback and other people’s situation to see, maybe I would have dealt with it.
“Was not close with either of the above, and both services are far away so I’m still a funeral virgin. I just know it’s not going to last forever, shit.
“My older brother said this to me a month ago: WTF, I spent the first half of my life trying to kill myself and it seems I will spend the second half trying to stay alive.”
not ready? i found my mother, dead, a month ago. i completely grok the not being ready. i will never, not ever, be able to rid my mind of that image, or of those moments. doing cpr on my own mother, begging the 911 operator to come, to bring help. knowing, all the while, that it was too late.
she was my sons best friend, and my main support as a mother myself. so our loss is manifold. and it’s only gotten harder now that all the funerals, memorials, cleaning house, dealing with utilities, cars, things, is over. it’s too quiet. and her loss is in our faces every day.
if it weren’t for the support of my friends who have stood in as family for so many years, i would be adrift on a sea of terrible grief. they have provided a raft, of sorts, to support me in my sorrow… renee, lisa, johnny, james, justin, kevin, dave klowden, shawna, kristen, carla, monica, megan, lori, and all the san diego family who are there for us, thank you. you have no idea how much it means.
o, and james, kevin, david and i talked, at my moms memorial, about how the beauty of our group is that even after all these years, we still show up. show up in the happy times, and in the sad. our bonds are pretty unbreakable. that carries me when i feel lost.
Steve Foth…
The youngest person whose funeral I attended was a brilliant 21-year-old guy who worked for me and I’d mentored since he was 17. He failed to show up at the train station where his family was waiting for him Christmas Eve — the police found him in his apartment.
I waited until Boxing Day to call each member of my large staff and our professional friends to tell them personally, and I flew in to his home town to deliver a eulogy. That was a difficult one for me — nothing compared to the agony his family went through, but I still get jumpy when one of my team isn’t where s/he’s supposed to be!
When Nancy’s parents passed, I was very glad there were seven responsible siblings to share the weight. Looking into the future, I do not relish my status as sole offspring.
I’ve been to many Catholic funerals, no Jewish ones. My birth family doesn’t do death very well, so everything I’ve learned about rituals of bereavement, I’ve picked up from Nancy’s side. (Hail Mary, full of grace … !)
Thanks Matt,
Today I’m will be among the living and may kill myself by the end of the day. I’m taking my 9 year old twins to Disney for the first time.
I will chime in later.
Matt, what happened, to your 25 year old colleague? I work with a few terminally ill people. They try to put it out of there minds, and stick to a routine life, like nothings going to happen. My friend said, ” what can I do?” He asked the Doctor how long he has, and the Doctor told him “500 miles” he has kidney cancer, I am not sure any of us know what we would do in his place, we may think we know………..
Sorry 21
Two very different people recently inspired me at the end of their lives …
1. Nancy’s aunt, Sister Rose Anna Tobin, passed away at the beginning of March after 71 years in the Maryknoll order. We visited her Superbowl Sunday; she was happy to see us, lucid and tranquil in her faith. She gave us some of her few possessions, which she’d been distributing to other visitors as well, and spoke with pride about her accomplishments and adventures during a long life.
2. Guy Kewney, a noted British tech journalist who’d done some writing for me , died April 8, just shy of 64. I believe Guy was a confirmed nonbeliever, but his witty documentation of his illness on his blog and Facebook reflected a remarkable similarity to Sister Rose Anna’s outlook. The last post he wrote (March 29) is titled “Winding down? or just a slow day?” and his daughter’s announcement of his death carries the title “So long and thanks for all the fish.”
I highly recommend you read Guy’s last public words. He was a very fine writer, and I’ve taken a lot of pleasure from them.
>>Matt, what happened, to your (21) year old colleague?
Lou: He made a dumb, childish mistake with (legally) prescribed drugs and alcohol.
I made his mom laugh at the eulogy … I brought up the Blackberry, cell phone and other gadgets he’d helped me configure and said in this case, technology panic was one of my stages of grief!
god i cant wait to go
i know theres a buncha folks down there
waiting for me
>“I pretty much shut down and did not deal with it”
Death and grief are hard enough to deal with without pressuring yourself to grieve the “right” way on some prescribed schedule. Grasping and accepting a loss, or reminders of all you have to lose, takes time.
“I just know it’s not going to last forever, shit.”
And no amount of anxiety or avoidance prevents the inevitable. So, wake up grateful; and show your love while you can.
Well, I made it back from the Disney adventure, my kids really lucked out for their first trip. Good weather and basickly no lines for anything. They did not have a clue about waiting 2 hours per ride but I sure knew what they were not missing. We had a super special day. One of the twins who is Mr. Tough extreme ride dude had a fit once he figured out what it’s a small world was…..ha it was too late. Basickly it was like I forced him to listen to Disco for 5 minutes.
My whole deal is that I have been very lucky and not really had to deal with these types of events. It also meas I have never had a big close family other than my folks and siblings. I know others have had way too many situations to deal with already.
It is something new to me and probably others, it’s just good to talk about it and hear how others are and will be dealing with it.
Why does Steve Foth’s death/life never receive the attention it deserves on this site?
I am truly puzzled!!!
If we couldn’t die, we’d have never done any of this.
mark, you are very lucky to not have dealt with death until now. i lost my dad 14 years ago. i guess that makes me an orphan.
>>Why does Steve Foth’s death/life never receive the attention it deserves on this site?
Robyn: We’ve mentioned Steve and the circumstances of his murder on occasion on the site, but it’s true that we haven’t done much about it. It’s pretty horrendous, and — while I liked Steve — I suppose I’ve felt unqualified to be the narrator.
Since we’re traveling through some heavy territory in this thread, this could be the right place to discuss it.
Robyn,
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I simply don’t like to talk about it. I get too upset.
>>It is something new to me and probably others, it’s just good to talk about it and hear how others are and will be dealing with it.
Mark: For what it’s worth … When the time comes, you will deal with it. You’re an empathetic, emotionally honest person, awesome parent, good focus on your core values. You’ll do what you do — and what you do will reflect the person you’ve been all along. Like Robin said, there’s no “right” way of handling this stuff.
For reasons I can’t diagnose, Gary Heffern has been unable to post to the blog for more than a month. (PC mavens welcome to help us solve his difficulty.) He can read us, however, and contributes this account to the thread:
“my great grandparents in america were the dewees’s they used to live on pescadero in ocean beach…gramma dewees died, and i would go down to visit grampa dewees usually for a couple of hours, they had alot of plants and i would go water them so i would go down there a few times a week…usually grampa would be sleeping…he was a gentle soul. one day i went into his bedroom, and he was sitting there shaking his head…grinning like a cheshire cat he said to me “grammie was just here…she wiggled my big toe and just woke me up and said “i’ll be seeing you soon” he was filled with such joy and wonderment…i’ll never forget the look on his face, and i remember telling my family about that…the next time i went to visit him he greeted me at the door and went to get the mail…i waited for him at the door to hold it for him he walked inside took about 5 steps and fell back and died in my arms…i was not afraid when i laid him down gently and kissed him goodbye…it was so graceful, and i remember thinking what a beautiful moment and what a peaceful smile he had on his face…yeah…graceful is the word…love to you all.
heff”
gary, thank you for that. so much. my grandmother left in much the same way. she kept talking about my grandfather, who had died several years prior, as having visited her. and i believed her. she was always so thrilled by his presence. his telling her that soon they would be together. i take great comfort in that.
truthfully, my mom was probably gone for a while before i got there, and despite heroic efforts to bring her back, i think she was really ready to just be gone. my sorrow stems from wondering if i could have changed anything (despite finding that heart disease claimed her) by being there sooner.
these last several weeks have been hard. grief is an unpredictable animal. some days i am dandy. then, on a dime, i will cry uncontrollably because of something that flits across the screen of my minds eye.
life is so… to use a terribly overused cliche, fragile. i am trying to be more aware of making sure the people i love know that they are present in my heart, daily. dying without that knowledge would be dreadful… and my mom, for how suddenly she left, knew we knew how much she loved us. and how much we loved her.
Mark, I relate to what your brother (I totally remember him!) said:
“My older brother said this to me a month ago: WTF, I spent the first half of my life trying to kill myself and it seems I will spend the second half trying to stay alive.”
I had a roommate during my final days of living in San Francisco who got drunk and fell off the roof of a three story victorian. I was one of the first people down to the bottom, where I saw him shudder and die. I remember I got depressed because I wasn’t the one that went. I was 21-years old. Life was an endurance test. I wanted to “live fast, die young”.
A week ago I had a cancer scare, and though it was benign, it really put into perspective what is important and how much I want to live today -- and I make healthier choices to make that possible -- it’s been 1 1/2 years now of no smoking!!!
Time is short. & precious. What we do today will kill us tomorrow.
The Che Underground , literally
>>Life was an endurance test. I wanted to “live fast, die young”.
Kristen: Nancy and I have concluded that adult life is basically an effort to fix all the stuff that wasn’t working right in your youth. (In fact, I unquestionably prefer this phase! Less breaky.)
I continue to be frustrated!!! What about a discussion on Steve Foth and the positive humor,style and music he brought to our scene?
>>I continue to be frustrated!!! What about a discussion on Steve Foth and the positive humor,style and music he brought to our scene?
Robyn: This is a collaborative project! As you’ve seen, many authors have provided posts over the past two years … I’d be delighted if you’d contribute an appreciation of Steve.
My dear friend Brian Penn died over twenty years ago and I still miss him tremendously, he had sunken into a pretty bad drug affair, and I was all set up to lock him down at my house and get him clean. I had warned the neighbors that they might hear some yelling and stuff but explained to them what was going to happen. I came home from a long days work and there was a message that Brian had called, I was exhausted and selfish, knowing he probably just wanted to borrow some money, and I did not call him back (there’s always tomorrow right?). The next day I discovered that he had died. If there is someone you can help or something you can do to bring happiness to somebody that you love, don’t wait til tomorrow. RIP little brother!
Robyn,
You are so right about Steve. He was a beautiful, complex person and I miss him greatly.
I’m in agreement with Kevin, though. It’s still not very pleasurable for me to think about Steve. It dredges up sorrow and pity and frustration and anger--not sentimentality.
a taoist priest once
informed me that i could
mourn for someone 5, 7 or 10 years
i had never heard that before
grief has its own timeline. for anyone to suggest otherwise is simple ignorance.
I don’t think we really fear death so much as we fear acknowledging death. I wouldn’t have said it then, but the very best thing to happen to me was the catalyst for my exiting the scene: being diagnosed terminal- hearing a specific date by which I’d likely cease to exist. It was the best gift I’ve ever received. It’s one thing to say “life’s short,” and another to know it. Once you have to face it, the fear lifts. I’m grateful that the doctors didn’t determine that was a misdiagnosis until I’d had a year to take it in. Because I was beyond relief by then. I remained and continue to remain as terminal as all of us always have been. Time spent fighting or fearing that is not spent drinking in or creating beauty and joy.
robin, your words are balm. such grace in them. and truth.
A balm? a balm? Do you even know what a balm is?
I love when Jack Webb says, “LSD is the balm!”
>>A balm? a balm? Do you even know what a balm is?
Lou: “Any of various aromatic resinous substances used for healing and soothing.” It’s cited in the book of Jeremiah as a metaphor for spiritual succor.
In the same vein, I believe Ava was using it as a metaphor … Do you know what a metaphor is?
BTW, I’d suggest that Jesus (and Otis Redding) would try a little tenderness before jumping on a bereaved daughter’s choice of words in thanking a friend bearing good advice:
“Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.” (Colossians 3:12)
“And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.” (Ephesians 4:32)
Just a thought. Of course, maybe your version of the book advocates pedantry at these moments, Lou. (Do you know what pedantry is?)
Thanks, Ava. I’m sorry you’ve had some rough times lately.
Maybe this hymn was as loved in your family’s Episcopal church as it is in mine. I loved it before I ever got to a church:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZQ-jjhlyFM&feature=related
FYI…Lou is just quoting a Seinfeld moment….Jeez!!!
CHE has become so sticky, sickie, sweet…must go puke.
Better now, back to the real world.
>>Jeez!!! CHE has become so sticky, sickie, sweet
Bruce: Was I being sticky sweet? Funny, I thought I was being a cantankerous asshole — and apparently one who can’t identify his “Seinfeld” references! 🙂
Lou: My apologies for going off … I didn’t get it — I need to avoid getting self-righteous after 10pm.
BTW, I do notice that 9 out of 10 times I want to write something pissy here, it’s because I don’t fully understand the facts. (Like this time! Sorry again, Lou.)
Bruce: I’m a little surprised you would want to step in and set me straight on Lou’s behalf, since you keep complaining we don’t have enough conflict and drama on the blog. You just effectively defused what could have been a wonderfully pointless bout of the screaming and throwing shit you claim to savor.
That suggests three things to me:
>You actually want your friends to be understood and appreciated;
>You don’t like silly attacks when they’re directed at you or people you like; thus
>It appears you enjoy complaining about the lack of conflict more than you actually like the conflict, at least when it’s pointed your way.
All of which are commendable! (Except not so much the last one … If you’re going to behave like an intelligent adult who resolves misunderstandings, it seems weird to complain about it.)
Gotta Love ya, Matt. PLEEEEZ run for president!
1. I don’t care about the friends thing, I just want “Seinfelds” to be understood and appreciated.
2. I love silly attacks on me…just not on Lou.
3. I do enjoy conflict…that’s what is missing. The persistent “I feel your pain” dialogue becomes nauseating at some point. “Oh, I have a friend that died, I almost died, I’m dying, I knew someone who died…” Come on, I thought this was just entertainment? 🙂
>>Come on, I thought this was just entertainment?
Bruce: Welllllllllll …
Our friend Mark wrote in because he just had a couple deaths in his family, he realizes he’s getting to an age where death’s unavoidable, and he’d like some insights about how to deal with it.
Our friend Ava just found her mother dead last month and is still dealing with it.
Various other friends are offering their own experiences in response. A public thread’s awfully exposed for everyone to feel comfortable getting super-personal, but I hope some of the stories helped.
Is that a laff riot or the ideal place to pick a fight? I guess it depends on your idea of comedy gold or a debating point, but I’m not quite seeing it …
There are about 300 other threads on here about music and goofy San Diego history and other silliness that would seem a more promising place to slam dance. Go nuts!
Complaining that this isolated thread about the deaths of loved ones is too solemn is kind of like saying “Grave of the Fireflies” fails as a comedy.
well anyways i was getting
a deep tissue massage
that included Chinese medicine
which concluded that grief is stored
in the lungs
i must remember to breathe more often
I don’t think this thread was a place to pick a fight or have a humorous moment…I was just responding to a misunderstanding!
Lou and I both are going through health problems, a close friend of ours is gravely ill as we speak, my mothers dead, and my father is dying of prostate cancer.
I think this is a poor venue for grieving and I know that some of the “contributors” are less than genuine in their sympathies…basically psychos who will do anything for attention including consoling people (with their love and Jesus) that they don’t know or care about.
THAT’S why I like it when CHE is fun and not maudlin (it’s entertainment).
If you’re really concerned why not email or send a card..why grieve on public forums????
in all
that is written here
i see love
compassion and kindness
the word choice may be interesting
and have edges
but i believe we all genuinely care
for each other
>>I think this is a poor venue for grieving … If you’re really concerned why not email or send a card..why grieve on public forums????
Bruce: Interesting question. I think it returns us to the fundamental issue whether there’s a “right” way to grieve or a “right” channel to offer support.
I say the answer’s no, and the comfort level varies from person to person. I personally feel comfortable operating in a relatively open online space, although there’s plenty of stuff I don’t post publicly. (E.g., I offered a redacted version of the anecdotes I shared here … Not everything’s germaine to the discussion or appropriate to the privacy of the families.)
In this case, we’ve got two people with whom many of us have long history asking an honest question and (I think) getting honest answers. As our friend Mr. Damian points out, there’s a lot of genuine caring among participants here, and I believe that the experiences people are posting may be useful to folks who aren’t personally comfortable sounding off here themselves.
This blog is certainly a mixed bag of different kinds of posts, and many people would say they call for different kinds of responses. I like it better that way, but I admit it can inspire some cognitive dissonance. (Viz. my testy response to Mr. Skum.)
Of course, a lot of the action that started here when we all first reconnected has moved to e-mail, Facebook or other channels where people can do exactly what you’re describing, Bruce: communicate privately with (we hope!) control over who’s on the receiving end. That’s healthy … I agree that not every individual should post their personal concerns on a public blog with thousands of readers — but I appreciate that Ava, Mark and the rest picked this spot to discuss something that we’re all going to go through sooner or later.
bruce, i truly do not understand why you feel it’s ok to be snarky about this thread. it shows an utter lack of human compassion to be so.
sorry if your need for entertainment was thwarted. but this thread IS called “i’m not ready” and i did tell you that i just found my mother dead.
my heart is broken, and i shared because mark asked us to share because he is having a hard time adjusting to his own losses. how can you justify being mean in this thread? how?
meantime, robin, your words were/are a balm to my heart. and i could give two shits about sienfeld right now.
matthew, well put. and true. this is something we all will have to face. i hope, for all of you, that you are not the one to find your parent. it is something that will haunt me forever.
robin, that song is so beautiful. thank you.
Bruce,
My mom always said that “Happiness shared is doubled, grief shared is divided.”
I find this place to be far more than an entertainment venue. Here, I am connected to old (and new) friends. I might not always be able to pick up the phone, but simply taking a glance here (or on Facebook) allows me to keep in touch with people I care about. The fact that it is in a relatively public forum is of no consequence. If I need to convey something more private there is email, or, yes, even a phone call. In fact, seeing the posts here may prod me to make a contact that I might otherwise not have realized I should make.
I have a lot more thoughts on the subject, but I am very short on time today. Suffice to say that I get far more than entertainment out of Che Underground.
--Kevin
Ava: I’m truly sorry. Please, especially while you’re going through all of this, don’t leave yourself vulnerable to meanness. You have infinite other things to attend to than critiques of how you express your grief. You decide what and whom you take to heart.
What a lonely world it would be if you had to know someone before you could care about them.
>>Suffice to say that I get far more than entertainment out of Che Underground.
Kevin: Thanks for that … Me, too.
robin, i spent the morning humming that song, while thinking about how much i gain from the connections i have forged here. we don’t know each other, but i know we care for one another. that carries me when i am down. each connection i have in this life, it is of significance and grace.
Wow. Every response I start is so clumsy by comparison. Thank you. I feel the same way. Connecting you with the song has kept you closer in my thoughts today.
I’m never disappointed when a source of entertainment manages to deliver something better.
“it shows an utter lack of human compassion to be so.
sorry if your need for entertainment was thwarted.”
AVA…if you read the original posts you’ll see I was responding to someones elses attempt at lighthearted humor that was misinterpreted. I posted that I have in the past, and, am now, going through my own losses and concerns for the health of myself and close friends.
I was commenting that some people are less than genuine and get off on being so “loving” to fill their own voids. I would rather call, email, write a letter, etc…if I loved someone and cared so much. Just a different choice….I think different is still OK????
>>Just a different choice….I think different is still OK????
Bruce: Yeah, different is OK. But for someone asking this question, you sure don’t seem OK with the differences expressed in this thread!
Your last paragraph seems to cartwheel from aggression to victimhood without missing a beat — do you ever get dizzy?
I am one dizzy, aggressive, victim!! 🙂
Oh, the typed word does not translate well. Some people on CHE are just shitheads, IMO, and I’m not referring to you Matt.
Just keep sending prayers and asking Jesus to help poor unfortunates like myself…wish I was one of the blessed!
So anyway … As an only child, this stuff has been preying on my mind a bit. I’ve had some good conversations with my folks about long-term care and my dad’s literary estate, among other buzzkilling topics … I’m reassured to find their affairs more settled than I’d feared.
Anyone else have this chat?
we did, interestingly enough. two months before she died we talked about her moving into a retirement community and/or into a bigger house with me and henry. looking back, i am simultaneously sad and glad for our having not done that. i wish, however, that she had left some kind of will. her not having one has made it harder for me to cope with her affairs.
i talked, at length, with several of our clan here at che, about making sure you, yourself, have a will and have your children squared away in the tragic event of your passing or incapacitation. i do. it makes sure hen is well cared for and that any debt i have is cleared away through the insurance i have on my cards and loans. do these things for them. AND, don’t keep everything you have ever owned. seriously. your kids won’t want a million boxes of ‘things’ that won’t replace you. all i have kept of my mothers would fill a large carton, and her desk. she had a three bedroom house. so yeah, be cool. be spartan. and leave a goddamn will.
>>i talked, at length, with several of our clan here at che, about making sure you, yourself, have a will and have your children squared away in the tragic event of your passing or incapacitation.
Ava: Oh, yeah we do! Nancy and I nailed this will stuff down 10 years ago. I totally second that emotion.
it’s so crucial. even with grown children, kwim?
One good thing about moving cross-country is we ditched a lot of crap in the process. Sorting through stuff periodically is important — figuring out what the kids will really want from their childhood takes a lot of thought!
yep. i am in the process of wading through OUR stuff now that i have managed hers. unreal what we accumulate.
>As an only child, this stuff has been preying on my mind a bit
Yeah. I never minded being an only child until I realized I’d be alone when that time came. Mom insisted I have that talk with her before I felt ready. She was right, of course. It’s kind of a hobby with her.
robin, i have to say that being the only person to cope with all her things/debts/arrangements has taxed me to my limit.
truly.
You’re an only child too?
You sleeping OK these days?
Hey, Mark- if you brought this here to feel less alone in it; I hope you found what you came for. No one can make it good. But Kevin’s mom made a good point about sharing grief.
Try drinking chamomile tea and tucking yourself in tonight, bunny. With a story. A nice one. No newspapers. Remind yourself you need sleep.
Gary Heffern, still mysteriously unable to log in to post himself, asked me to add this:
” in response to lee i just want to say that i think of brian every day…i carry alot of weight for how he died…he only wanted one thing…and that was simply to fit in.
heff”
some days are far easier… and developing a new sense of normal is key to making the good days more frequent.
today, however, i missed her a lot. she was the one i would talk to about ww2 and all my fascinations with that conflict. she was immensely proud of our country in general, and of those who served in ww2 in particular. her father helped design and implement an american version of the enigma system, so she felt connected in a way. i loved talking to her about things like that, where we could really find common ground and interest.
but, as with all things in life, change is the only constant… and my missing her is changing shape. it’s an ache now, versus an acute pain.
thanks to the care of our friends henry and i feel loved and supported. that is all anyone can ever really ask for.
Oh, how I’ve missed you, Toby. I’m sure I’m in good company.
I hope you are taking good care of yourself.
toby wong
I Love all of you. Cept peckerwood Bruce…
4:48?
Go to sleep.
Sweet dreams.
I’m in Hawaii Pacific time. Still loving some of you. 😉
It’s actually only 9:30 here.
>>It’s actually only 9:30 here.
Toby: At my age, 9:30 is a respectable bedtime. I put on my episodes of “Matlock” I taped on VHS, have some nice soup, and … zzzzz!
vhs? dude, beta. max.
>>vhs? dude, beta. max.
Ava: The boy wanted to put cables in my television, but I told him to get off my lawn.
matthew, you are my comedy. i thank you for the big lol’s.
I know a guy who arose from the dead.
They move my things! I had quarters in an ashtray!
Hey, Mark Mullen- how are you?
Hate Life?
why the censorship?
“If I’m concerned about a message, I will absolutely contact the poster to discuss editing or rewriting it. ”
REALLY???? Interesting that you define “concern” differently than your own friends do.
>>REALLY???? Interesting that you define “concern” differently than your own friends do.
Bruce: Yes, really. Have I ever taken down or redacted any of your posts?
(Since this is actually still a blog post about death and grief, it would probably be most appropriate if you addressed any concerns to me directly, via any of the private channels by which you’ve always been able to reach me. If you truly believe you have an issue you’d like to air publicly, though, knock yourself out.)
“Ava: The boy wanted to put cables in my television, but I told him to get off my lawn.”
“I put on my episodes of “Matlock” I taped on VHS, have some nice soup, and … zzzzz!”
“this is actually still a blog post about death and grief”…..?????
Anyway…you haven’t taken down any of my hundreds of ill-conceived posts…nor have I posted anything about about tracking down and violating other human beings.
You can’t discern the difference between off-color remarks and psychotic violent threats??
“I pretty much shut down and did not deal with it,” Mark writes. “Maybe if I wrote the story and had feedback and other people’s situation to see, maybe I would have dealt with it.”
Mark Mullen, how are you doing? I think your point was you felt alone in dealing with scary, ungraspable issues and you hoped for some company. You’re not alone. I hope you found at least some company in the midst of…well, I’ll defer to whatever you’d label the rest of it.
Matt Rothenberg- Thanks for treating your own space and time so much like public services that people tend to forget they’re not. I hope you are spending most of this weekend with your lovely family.
>>You can’t discern the difference between off-color remarks and psychotic violent threats??
Bruce: OK, so you want to protract this publicly. I assumed you would.
Remember earlier in this very thread when you stated, “CHE has become so sticky, sickie, sweet…must go puke”? And “I do enjoy conflict…that’s what is missing.” The fact is, you’ve complained and complained here and on Facebook about the lack of conflict on the blog … How I am somehow trying to keep people from feeling “uncomfortable.”
Now you’ve gone and provoked some conflict, and you’re apparently feeling uncomfortable about it. Congratulations! You got both your wishes! You should be ecstatic.
Instead, you’re complaining that I’m not censoring someone else’s (rather obviously) rhetorical flourishes. Would I have written what Toby did? No, but his response violates none of the site’s rules and certainly seems in the spirit of the interaction you’ve been demanding.
Finally, the fact that you don’t understand why my jokes made Ava laugh and yours profoundly upset her and many of her friends is revealing. The fact that you’re not even a little bit curious about why that’s the case is even more so.
Honestly, I don’t have much patience to make this thread a Bruce referendum. If such a post would assuage your need for … whatever it is you require … I can create one for you. Probably not on the home page, but you can own it and set the rules. It’ll be your own special little place that accommodates your own safe, self-serving vision of conflict and discomfort. Want me to? It’ll take me five minutes.
I’m not uncomfortable at all with conflict Matt. I am wondering why you would go on such an insulting rant over someone asking about a balm…a balm for gods sake…but say nothing about insane violent outbursts.
BTW..Do you honestly think Lou or I intended to make AVA feel bad??
A couple of regular posters are tech backup with access that allows them to remove their own posts. Those can go up and go down without Matt ever seeing them. Also, it has been known to happen that someone requests retraction and Matt accommodates. If you see something, then you don’t, no reason to assume censorship. Matt gets all Boy Scouty scrupulous about censorship. He’s Jerome Rothenberg’s son, for cryin’ out loud. For some other thread, I might just sit back and be a cynical spectator. But, I remember my grandmothers’ funerals and can’t muster much cynicism here.
Ava- hey, keeping you in my thoughts.
>>BTW..Do you honestly think Lou or I intended to make AVA feel bad??
Bruce: I apologized publicly to Lou — twice! — despite the fact that I really think it was an incredibly inappropriate moment to start quoting sitcoms. I’ve yet to see you extend the same courtesy to Ava. Instead, you keep making it about you.
Extra poignancy points: Lou’s proven over 30 years that he’s perfectly happy provoking a bit of snappishness, and I hardly think my loss of temper shook him very deeply. By contrast, your remarks caused Ava real pain that she expressed very clearly in this thread.
If you can demonstrate enough self-awareness to acknowledge to Ava why she might feel bad about what you wrote — bad enough to write the response she did — and the humility to apologize for it, then I’ll assay an opinion about whether her pain was your intention. Short of that, I have no evidence about your motives.
PS: Are you enjoying this? I’m not very much!
No enjoyment at all…I immediately tried to apologize off CHE to AVA…that’s kind of personal and up to her whether or not to “friend”, forgive, advise…whatever. Again, kind of personal and perhaps should have been in your realm of possibility?
My bad, Lous bad, for not reading the thread before we communicated. Lou and I are both experiencing our own health problems and family health problems. I don’t see how you can believe that either of us would try to make Ava feel bad.
I tried to FB message you re: publicly protracting…don’t know whether you got one or two?
>>I tried to FB message you re: publicly protracting…don’t know whether you got one or two?
I just did receive a message. I’m happy to stop here. Back to our regular programming!
I feel it is time to quote Rodney King
>>I feel it is time to quote Rodney King
LOL! There’s no bad time to quote Rodney King.
No bad time to quote Jesse Jackson either.
“Lack of education begets ignorance, ignorance begets fear, fear begets violence…”
“friend requests” are not apologies. bruce, you truly have no idea what you have done to inspire people to feel so uncomfortable with you?
honestly, give it a rest. you are bordering on trollish behavior. find a new venue for your self serving actions.
meantime, i am thankful for the support and love of my friends both here and offline. this has been a terrifically awful time for me and my son, as my mom was, essentially, his other parent. her loss is tantamount to losing another mom. and we face that loss each day with a mix of sorrow and gratitude. sorrow for her passing and gratitude for her having been as present as she was. most kids only see their grandparents a few times a year. he saw her all the time. daily, in fact. and so, with that loss he has had to adjust to a new way of being. a new version of normal. and that’s taking some doing and some time.
i will not sully that process by further acknowledging a selfish, cruel, underhanded man any longer. bruce, say what you want… but sooner or later people will stop feeding your need for drama and stop talking to you at all. then, maybe you will start being a little more compassionate and treat people with the respect you so loudly demand.
matthew, you know i appreciate your ability to make me laugh. and the way you maintain che is impeccable.
(when i was the admin for a mothering board i had a tendency to ban people for being purposefully cruel to other members. we had a policy on the matter. and let me tell you, no one was against it. it felt good to have people leave who weren’t into being kind and participate with the basic, simple rule: do unto others… matthew, you might want to consider that as an update.)
Ava: My mother and mother-in-law are hugely involved with my daughter’s life as well. Not with the intensity your mom was with Henry, but close. I can imagine what a loss that would be. So sorry.
robin, the blessing of their involvement is something your daughter will be grateful for as she gets older. henry was close to my grandmother, too. in fact, when they got together it was as if no one else existed. they would sit, heads together, and talk. henry wanted to know everything about her life. she was always interested in his. so they talked and talked. and she thought the world of him. after she died he put on a ring that she gave him and hasn’t taken it off since.
bonds we forge in life are not touched by death. i firmly believe that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utkuAuCzovw
Ava, really, take care of yourself. You’re going through a lot. If there’s pain from which you can simply away…
i’m working at it. grief counseling is really helping me and hen.
daily walking toward a new normal.
Nice voice.
The moms will be here in about an hour. I’ll give them extra hugs on your behalf.
Matt- my 2 cents- free speech allows people to give fair warning about themselves.
I used to hate talking about death. It scared the crap outta me. Then I lost my twin brother (and best friend). When I was trying to deal with it, I had to think, and remind myself, that if I could make it through the loss, I would never have to deal with anything else as devastating ever again. It was liberating, in a way, to think that the absolute worst thing that could happen to me had already happened. Then, about four years later, I found my Mom dead on her bedroom floor. Ava, like you probably were, I was hysterical, inconsolable, and found myself in the middle of the street sobbing waiting for the paramedics. I really,really feel your pain, and my heart goes out to you. It will get better, though at times it will seem overwhelming (I still pick up the phone to call my Mom…) And the same goes for anybody else on here who has lost someone close.
About anyone else who has passed away, be it Steve Foth (a real bro if there ever was one), Lloyd, Marc Rude, Dan McLain, Chris Jarhead, or even Jay Bogart, I have soft spots and voids for all. I think what we all need to ask ourselves when evaluating the lives, deaths and, yes, even thread comments, is this: Was this person impulsive, defensive, protective, insensitive or irrational? Those are all human traits and we are all fallible. We are not perfect. None of us can say we said/did the right thing at the right time, all of the time. Before reacting to someone’s passing (or someone’s comments or shitstirring) the question is if there is, or is not, genuine malice. No one is born an asshole, and most assholes I know wear it as armor. I have no doubt that if everybody on here were lumped together in a room, without nametags or known personal histories, we’d become fast friends. These are not comments I’m making to continue a debate or further head scratching. I know most of you and know that deep down inside, everybody who has commented above has a beating heart. For some reason, boards and forums seem to be magnets for knee-jerk reactions and misconstrued comments. Maybe it’s because you can’t hear vocal inflections, or because forums are like a soapbox free-for-all. Whatever it is, I’ve found that, when in doubt, it’s best not to comment at all.
When I went at my brother’s funeral, minutes before having to give his eulogy, I was still in shock. Dazed, everything seemed surreal, like a bad dream. Then one of my brother’s old bandmates walked up, with his wife and just born infant. All I could think about was that old Blood Sweat & Tears song “And when I die, and when I’m gone, there’ll be one child born in this world to carry on.” That child is now about 12, and as far as I know isn’t yet an asshole.
Ava, I sincerely apologize, if my comment was hurtful to you. I agree with Matthew that it was an inappropriate time to quote a sitcom. I wasn’t trying to make light of your sorrow, It was an ill concieved attempt at humour. I put my foot in my mouth, as I often do. Bruce is a good natured person, and is feeling a little ganged up on presently, Tom G is quite correct, about us all not doing the right things all the time. I feel for You and Henry, I am sorry for Your Mom and again I apologize.
Ava…”friend” requests are not apologies but it’s a nice place to start. The desire to start is important….
lou, thank you. so much. and i apologize for reacting to your words without pause. i know you have a good heart. i do.
tom, i am so sorry about both your mom (such a terrible image to live with, and for that i am profoundly empathetic) and your twin. i can’t imagine losing someone who you shared so much with. twins have a bond that is unimaginable to any of us single borns. (((hug)))
and tom, i knew and loved chris jarhead very much. i was torn up in a big way when he died. i had just seen him and spent a day talking about life, turning things around, making a new start with life. he was in love, and he was happy. and then his roof caved in. about knocked me sideways. i miss his presence on this planet still.
this morning i got a message from a friend who is going to do a painting for me using some of my mothers ashes. i feel that this would be such a beautiful thing to do to honor her.
Thanks Lou…but I’m not really a good natured person and I don’t actually feel ganged up on.
Oh geez- back in the day that wouldn’t have even warranted a raising of the eyebrows. Please dont be such pussies- you’re messing with all my pre-conceived Clint Eastwood-esque notions of you all.
Bruce- I apologize- I’m sorry you’re a complete and total douchebag. Get on with your life.
Lou- I’m seriously interested in whether you worked with John Kabaat Zinn at Boston (U? I cant remember.)- that guy possesses some brilliant insight and a very keen paradigm about loss.
>>Oh geez- back in the day that wouldn’t have even warranted a raising of the eyebrows. Please dont be such pussies- you’re messing with all my pre-conceived Clint Eastwood-esque notions of you all.
Apparently, it falls to me to stake out a position on the use of violent language on the blog, since Toby’s earlier post has caused some members of this community to express their concern.
For the record, Che Underground: The Blog does not endorse physical violence in any shape or form.
However, I am not comfortable limiting expression. The punk aesthetic we’ve explored here has always included a admixture of violent imagery (including many Injections lyrics, for example — e.g., “Teddy, Teddy, run for your life”).
Toby: In that context, could you clarify whether you literally intend to travel anywhere to commit violence or ask anyone to commit such an act against anyone involved in a thread on the blog? Or was the intent of the post in question figurative?
PS: Speaking for myself, I firmly believe it was rhetorical, although I can understand why some people would read it differently.
I’ve been defending my own position offline for days and days, and would appreciate clarity. I am not here to broker physical violence; nor am I here to police perfectly intelligent adults’ use of language. (I have bent that rule on rare exceptions, which is my prerogative as keeper of the blog. I can think of exactly one instance where I held a post, in the context of the Mike Woods thread, and encouraged the author to rephrase his point.)
I would like the antagonists here either to fight it out (metaphorically, not physically) for our public entertainment — without asking me to referee — or take it offline and sort it out there.
i’m so proud of you guys -- being able to keep up the exact same conversations we had drunk and angry in the fairmount hall parking lot and the fruit loop and karls back porch and a million other places 25 years ago. still silly emotional fancy monkeys after all these years !
>>i’m so proud of you guys -- being able to keep up the exact same conversations we had drunk and angry in the fairmount hall parking lot and the fruit loop and karls back porch and a million other places 25 years ago. still silly emotional fancy monkeys after all these years !
Shmeegle: If I don’t know you (but I probably do), I love you anyway. 🙂
Ditto. Big hippie love fest for Schmeegle.
And Matt. Glad you’re not playing cop. Wouldn’t suit you.
I’m in a beautiful place drinking great tea. Thinking about how Mark’s right that time is short. I get why it’s an indulgence to make provocative comments then ask sympathy for the response you’ve provoked. But with little time and other indulgences like great tea and fresh air, it saddens me to know someone would choose petty provocation and self pity.
I just agree so much with everything Matt, and Toby, and Robin have said. Great words of wisdom from three remarkable people.
Cheers friends!!
tough is as tough does…just wtf is tough anyway?
this is the interweb guys…
lighten up a little…it’s not too late
tomorrw will be another day with plenty of other morons to deal with
I resemble that remark yuk yuk yuk
this morning henry and i went to our favorite coffee shop and shared a table, reading our books and drinking a latte and italian soda, respectively. we talked about how our new normal is starting to feel good. hen mentioned how he’s liking working out a few days a week with me… which is a huge step for him. and we are doing more projects together. it’s been sweet. and wonderful.
last night we made up a new tradition:
after coring a bowl of strawberries (or use raspberries, etc.) take a chocolate chip and put it in the space where the core used to be. then, while you eat them, wait for one of you to find the chip. whoever does gets to decide what you have for breakfast the next day. i suppose you could do this with whatever suits you… anyway… hen got it, so we went to coffee and read. i love my son. he’s such a good egg.
i agree, life is too short… and i appreciate the true friends i have with a ferocity bordering on filial. perhaps actually filial… since i firmly believe that friends are gods way of making up for your family.
missing my mom, but not letting it debilitate me. that’s the key.
>>I resemble that remark yuk yuk yuk
Why, I oughta … !
taking time for myself is a new trad
just being
and meditating away
all worries and concerns
then logging on here
to get them all back
hahahaha!!
really luvs yoo guys
After finally finishing reading through all of this (and agreeing with Tom G’s post on the part concerning internet threads), I came across this interesting tidbit on a Facebook comment from a friend of a friend:
>>>Someone told me when Warren Zevon was dying of cancer, they
were in the studio and the piano suddenly fell silent. Warren said
(as best I can paraphrase):
” When someone purchases a book, they don’t know when they’ll find time to read it or IF they’ll find time to read it. What they’re buying is time.”
a little old lady got mutilated late last night
the s*#t has hit the fan
Boston?? More info please………..
>>Boston?? More info please………..
Lou is quoting Warren Zevon lyrics in response to Dave Doyle’s Warren Zevon anecdote. (“Lawyers, Guns and Money” and “Werewolves of London.”) Nothing to see here … All is well, citizens … return to your homes.
Werewolves of London again
Whew!! thanks….don’t know warren zevon.
(lou, you will get a laugh out of this… i googled boston/murder… and ended up trying to find what you were on about. yeah, see, literality runs deep. didn’t even think of warren z. you with your random quotes!)
Now, if somebody could do something about this headless Thompson gunner … !
On a slightly more serious note — hopefully not too serious, ’cause it’s just too beautiful a day for it — Zevon really was inspirational to me in his final months … Kind of like the people I cited earlier in this thread who’d touched my life with their graceful exits.
I was very affected by his final appearance on David Letterman … Especially the moment when he assures Letterman that he, too, would be able to conduct himself with dignity and humor (around 6:30 on this sequence):
one of my favorite memories:
karls house.
me, bill, brendan, karl, all sitting in the living room, belting out roland.
warren hits the spot sometimes. and i marvel at his grace, too, matthew.
How did I miss Warren altogether????
Jim Wood’s brother John played guitar for Warren’s band
>>Jim Wood’s brother John played guitar for Warren’s band
John Wood, stage right:
Remember when I played with Jim Wood, Alvin and Calvin Coker??
I guess I have like two degrees of separation from Warren!
…sigh…